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First Jail For Veterans

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AirborneSapr	First Jail For Veterans		Lead	[-]
Posts: 224 May 20 12 8:33 AM	Tags : None I know there's a lot of discussion on here about PTSD and other MH issues as possible defense for crimes, so I thought this was interesting. Besides jails like this I have read about and agree with the creation of criminal courts that have been created to specifically address the issues of veterans. Have a read http://www.rawstory.com/r...devoted-to-u-s-veterans/
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VABA		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2486 May 20 12 10:16 AM	It's a good thing. The government sends you to war, exposes you to a high risk of PTSD, and so has responsibility for caring for the veteran with PTSD. If the crime is a symptom of the disease--it makes sense to "factor in" the government's portion of responsibility for the crime. This is "apportionment of responsibility" is well-known in both criminal and civil law in the US and other countries. Help the vet--don't jail him if you don't have to. This is one good step toward adding REHABILITATION to our criminal justice system. >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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DocFMF	Just my opinion	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1441 May 23 12 9:25 AM	Criminal acts are just that, Criminal acts. In my opinion the fact that you have been in combat or have PTSD does not somehow justify that you have the right to break the law. I have PTSD and I have seen more carnage than anybody that was "NOT THERE" could ever comprehend. Did I ever feel like committing a crime after returning to the real world? Did I ever feel like the world was out to get me? Do I have to fight the feeling of needing to hurt someone as much or more than they hurt me? Of course I have and sometimes still do. Did or do I follow through? No!!! Why? Because I made/make a conscious decision not to. I know that crimes of passion and desperation happen more to people with PTSD than the average person on the street. Does that make the crime somehow more honorable? I do not think so. If you have the feelings that you need to do something illegal you need help. The same as if you feel like you need to commit suicide. There are places you can go to get help. Once you make the decision to commit the crime then you’re the same as any other criminal and deserve the same treatment. There should not be a special prison for combat vets just like there should not be special prisons for rich people. A criminal is a criminal... But then again it's just my opinion. Doc Edited 2 times by DocFMF May 23 12 10:00 AM.
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bhudspat		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17 May 23 12 10:13 AM	Good Article Glad that there is a state out there looking out for their veterans. Operation Iraqi Freedom II: February 2004 - December 2004 4th Platoon, D 2-108 IN, 2 BCT, 1 ID 105th Refugees 50% Bipolar/PTSD 20% Blurry Vision 10% Tinnitus 10% Right Knee 10% Lower Back Overall 70%
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backfire	RELAXING THOUGHTS !!	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 May 23 12 12:20 PM	Hi Doc... You may be a doctor, I don't know..but you sure are criticizing an area that you are not apparently familiar with and your comments seem to be off the cuff with no support at all !! I place much of the responsibility for the VA SYSTEM being so out of whack on the medical, psychiatric and legal fields. I am not going to explain it all out right here but take your time and begin to research responsibility during periods of "disassociation " and how this could have been a defense for many many PTSD veterans, many years ago. Correction Doc...these type of defenses are not for people who get in trouble on purpose and not for just blatant anti-social acts. Some PTSD vets drink alcohol to calm the stress. This has been known,.. They can not get anything else....it takes hardly anything at all to be labeled an addict by the VA and there are occasions of mis-diagnosis from a disgruntled psychologist or Social-Worker. I was an NSO for the DAV in the Pittsburgh Office and I do not think that veterans will ever be able to recover so many lost and unclaimed benefits simply because we have lost the right to sue the VA in court and expect true justice. I have seen so many crooked and anti-social behavior in the VA, it would (should) make you sick !!!
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AirborneSapr		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 23 12 5:07 PM	Couldn't disagree with you more Doc I think you said it best yourself: "I know that crimes of passion and desperation happen more to people with PTSD than the average person on the street." While we had a duty to serve and protect our country, it has an equal duty to protect us from the harsh reality of how our service has changed us. Also if you go into any criminal court there are always "mitigating circumstance" that allow defendants to plea to lesser charges, or have an effect of softening the sentencing they would otherwise face. YOU WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED WHAT COUNTS AS A MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES IN THIS COUNTRY. For all the bullsh*t reasons that do count, I can't really see anyone arguing in court that a prolonged exposure to combat experience that can have physical and chemical changes on the brain would not. Personally, it took me more than a couple of years, therapy, counseling, and medication to reset my moral compass to normal, I still really haven't dealt with any of my symptoms. I was stuck in a perpetual "react" mode where if I needed something I took it, and if I felt threatened, I reacted without much thought. I also think you should work on what my Doc calls "comparing."- I know I had to. Everybody is different, different stress-ors, different emotions, and vastly different reactions. I'm glad you were able to keep it all in check, but if you look at the scale of PTSD symptoms, towards the higher levels it spells out pretty clearly that the veteran has very little control over thoughts, fellings, and behavior. Because American society has failed to treat these folks to where they can adequately function, American society bears the burden of their faults, and I don't think locking them up and tossing the key is just in any way.
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freedom11b		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 174 May 24 12 2:11 AM	^+2 100% PTSD 10% TMJ 10% Sciatica 10% Tinitus 10% Right Knee 10% Left Knee 0% Alopecia Areata Development - GERD
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nmfxstc		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 25186 May 24 12 2:48 AM	AirborneSapr wrote: Couldn't disagree with you more Doc I think you said it best yourself: "I know that crimes of passion and desperation happen more to people with PTSD than the average person on the street." While we had a duty to serve and protect our country, it has an equal duty to protect us from the harsh reality of how our service has changed us. Also if you go into any criminal court there are always "mitigating circumstance" that allow defendants to plea to lesser charges, or have an effect of softening the sentencing they would otherwise face. YOU WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED WHAT COUNTS AS A MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES IN THIS COUNTRY. For all the bullsh*t reasons that do count, I can't really see anyone arguing in court that a prolonged exposure to combat experience that can have physical and chemical changes on the brain would not. Personally, it took me more than a couple of years, therapy, counseling, and medication to reset my moral compass to normal, I still really haven't dealt with any of my symptoms. I was stuck in a perpetual "react" mode where if I needed something I took it, and if I felt threatened, I reacted without much thought. I also think you should work on what my Doc calls "comparing."- I know I had to. Everybody is different, different stress-ors, different emotions, and vastly different reactions. I'm glad you were able to keep it all in check, but if you look at the scale of PTSD symptoms, towards the higher levels it spells out pretty clearly that the veteran has very little control over thoughts, fellings, and behavior. Because American society has failed to treat these folks to where they can adequately function, American society bears the burden of their faults, and I don't think locking them up and tossing the key is just in any way. < - 2 Fillean meal ar an meallaire.
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AirborneSapr		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 24 12 4:13 AM	reasoning?
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nmfxstc		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 25186 May 24 12 4:32 AM	AirborneSapr wrote: reasoning? PTSD is not solely a claim for veterans alone. I oppose segregating veterans in some sort of "special" jail for us...a crime is a crime...period! All this banter about the VA not being current, etc. is solid BS! VA is damned near the "gold standard" for diagnosing and treating PTSD. What's next? A special jail for MST? Vets who are AO diseased? What? Treatment is very available and excusing criminal acts and addressing them differently than what the LAW provides is a cop out, a disgrace, and perpetuates the "damaged goods" stigma of vets with PTSD....and isn't that stigma something we all demand be removed? Fine....no special jails! Fillean meal ar an meallaire.
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DocFMF		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1441 May 24 12 7:21 AM	I agree with NMFXSTC. Jails for Combat Vets perpetuates the stigma of veterans with PTSD as being "damaged goods" much the same as those that feel that all bikers are outlaws. Once again this is onlY "MY OPINION". I do not know what jails for veterans has to do with the VA system or veterans missing out on unclaimed benefits. I missed out on 20+ years of medical/psychological/monitary benefits not to mention the suffering I endured not having the insurance or money to get help. I was told I would not qualify for anything through the VA when I got out and not to even bother applying for disability by my personnel detachment. There were no programs like they have today grooming folks through the VA System prior to discharge. P.S. I'm not a doctor... Doc in this case is the nickname for a Navy Corpsman - Marine Corps Medic. Doc FMF
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DocFMF		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1441 May 24 12 7:53 AM	AirborneSapr wrote: Couldn't disagree with you more Doc I think you said it best yourself: "I know that crimes of passion and desperation happen more to people with PTSD than the average person on the street." While we had a duty to serve and protect our country, it has an equal duty to protect us from the harsh reality of how our service has changed us. Also if you go into any criminal court there are always "mitigating circumstance" that allow defendants to plea to lesser charges, or have an effect of softening the sentencing they would otherwise face. YOU WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED WHAT COUNTS AS A MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES IN THIS COUNTRY. For all the bullsh*t reasons that do count, I can't really see anyone arguing in court that a prolonged exposure to combat experience that can have physical and chemical changes on the brain would not. Personally, it took me more than a couple of years, therapy, counseling, and medication to reset my moral compass to normal, I still really haven't dealt with any of my symptoms. I was stuck in a perpetual "react" mode where if I needed something I took it, and if I felt threatened, I reacted without much thought. I also think you should work on what my Doc calls "comparing."- I know I had to. Everybody is different, different stress-ors, different emotions, and vastly different reactions. I'm glad you were able to keep it all in check, but if you look at the scale of PTSD symptoms, towards the higher levels it spells out pretty clearly that the veteran has very little control over thoughts, fellings, and behavior. Because American society has failed to treat these folks to where they can adequately function, American society bears the burden of their faults, and I don't think locking them up and tossing the key is just in any way. I agree with most of what you have to say. But what does that have to do with singling out ex-military personnel with PTSD and creating a special jail just for them? If a crime is commited due to a mental illness, is that not a justification for a plea for insanity? That is what this boils down to and why it's so distasteful. Nobody wants to be declared insane. If someone pleas insanity and the plea is accepted in court the defendant is remanded to mental health to receive treatment for the insanity. That answers the issues about receiving the mental health care issue. So many out there say feel sorry for the poor vet that went to war and got PTSD. Nobody is saying anything about the people the crimes were commited against. It sounds as if some of you think the victoms of the crimes should say "Oh the poor dear had PTSD from the war, I understand and it's ok that he/she robbed me or took the life of someone I loved.". I have been a victom and trust me... I did not care what lame excuse the perp had. It did not justify their victomizing me. That and if a veteran was the one that commited the crime against me then attempted to play the he was a victom card because he had PTSD,I would be twice as upset about it. Doc Edited 2 times by DocFMF May 24 12 8:23 AM.
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AirborneSapr		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 24 12 8:00 AM	I can respect that reasoning sir, reducing the stigma is something we all desire but I don't think it's possible. Between Jersey shore and the Kardashians the younger generations are for the most part completely unaware of what happens over seas and what more, they do not care - at all. Their perceptions of vets are guided by movies and TV. With the exception of 2 films, I can't think of anything in the past 10 years that didn't display vets as insanely bent on killing, their own deaths, or as homeless drug addicts. I know this influences 20 and 30 somethings because they ask me if that's how it really is, or say things that let me know they believe it. My point is that despite our wishes the reality is the bias isn't going anywhere so how can we expect a system to treat vets fairly where the people who run it probably have had little to no contact with the small % of people in the military, and are fed constant negative messages about them? So why not set up a system that can treat them? After all they're still in jail-not going anywhere, just not the general pop gladiator academy state prison system... how's that a bad thing. As for a crime being a crime, you and I may agree on that, but that's not how our justice system works.(You were a LEO right?) Felonies become misdemeanors which become infractions, which amount to fines and community service. How is PTSD not a legit factor in mitigation if so many other things are? I guess I don't see as being singled out.... more of a path to recovery than being lost in prison gangs, etc... Edited 1 time by AirborneSapr May 24 12 8:04 AM.
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DocFMF		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1441 May 24 12 8:10 AM	I did not say PTSD was not a mitigating factor. What I said was there should not be a special jail/prison for PTSD sufferers. Edited 1 time by DocFMF May 24 12 8:19 AM.
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AirborneSapr		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 24 12 8:18 AM	sry Doc i meant that towards one of the other guys. But just for the sake of argument, if you guys did something and it was directly related to your condition and you were facing time in the clink, wouldn't you want this system in place instead of going into the state system where you basically have to pick a gang to survive?
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DocFMF		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1441 May 24 12 8:44 AM	I would not have done anything that would put me in that situation. But in reply to your argument, of course if I was facing going to jail or prison I would want the easy way out. So would most of the first time offenders veteran or not. That does not excuse the fact that they commited a crime. Our mental health and court systems in the USA are sadly lacking. But I can't wrap my mind around how it's ok to create a special jail for veterans with PTSD. If they are in jail for commiting a crime that means they did not plea insanity or their insanity plea was declined by the court system. Meaning they made a consious decision to commit a crime and were clear headed enough to know right from wrong. I'm sure there are a few that fall through the cracks that should not be there. But the vast majority that go to jail or prison deserve to be there. I'll stop now. For those who dissagree with me, I'll agree to disagree. But my opinion is my opinion and I hold my ground. Be well. Doc
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AirborneSapr		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 24 12 9:22 AM	And I completely and utterly respect that opinion. Political/legal debate is a love of mine and i plan on dedicating a great deal of my future towards defending vets in legal trouble, so I really do value your opinion and thank you for going back and forth with me. Thanks Doc.
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The Old Medic		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6014 May 24 12 9:31 AM	This comes down to an issue of personal responsibility. Unless the person is legally insane (meaning that they literally can not tell the difference between right and wrong, or are simply unable to adhere to the right), THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN CHOICES IN LIFE. I have known a LOT of veterans with PTSD. I began treating them during the Vietnam War, in group therapy, and I have volunteered as a therapist for Vets with PTSD since graduating with my Masters in 1976. I have personally been involved in the treatment of several thousand veterans from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. While PTSD may make one more prone to acting out, it does NOT remove responsibility for CHOOSING to follow that path. The vast majority of those that commit crimes have refused to seek treatment, or have refused to follow through with treatment. They refuse medications, do not follow through with therapy, and then want to claim that their disorder "forced me to commit crimes". The vast majority of veterans with PTSD do not commit crimes. They choose not to behave like that. While I agree that this can be a mitigating factor in assigning punishment, in no way can PTSD be used as an excuse. It only perpetuates the idea of the "whacked out veteran", which is simply not the case at all. And frankly, singling out veterans for "treatment" in a special jail is a disservice to all of the other prisoners. Many of them also have mental disorders, but nobody is doing a damn thing for them. Having served your country should NEVER make you some kind of special, exalted person. The fact that you served merely means that you met your responsibility as a citizen. That's MY opinion, based on both education and over 45 years of treating service members and veterans with PTSD. US Army 1959-1969; Germany 1960-63; Medic 1964-69 SFC E-7 MOS: 55G10 (60-63) , 91B40, 91C40, 91F40 (64-69) Registered Nurse, 1968-2005 (Licensed, not practicing after 1975) Ed.D in Rehabilitation Counseling, Certified Rehabilitation Counselor Retired, Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Independent Social Security Contract Vocational Expert 1983-2005, Contract Medical Expert 1987-2005 60% Service Connected Disabled; Life Member of the DAV since 1980
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AirborneSapr		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 May 24 12 11:46 AM	I think your right about the responsibility part old medic But It's not like theses guys are being transferred to an inpatient facility or anything. They are STILL in prison. They just have access to the resources that all prisoners probably should have... if its a disservice to all the other inmates........well I won't be losing sleep over it. Does it matter that the Sherriff of Muscogee County in Columbus, Georgia thinks this is a good idea? BTW thanks for your input
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ArtilleryHill		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 228 May 25 12 8:56 AM	Fortunately for me - no jail time yet - arrested and cuffed - but it was called "procedure" - thank goodness. But everybody always removes my weapons and don't give them back...
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Dbltap1		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 May 26 12 8:00 PM	This has been a good read. Aside from how jail time is spent, does anyone have input regading restitution? Example: Vet Doe has been trying to get claims through VA system for three years but caught in the system as we know it to be. He wants VA psych care but too far away. Can't afford to pay bills let alone gas for the multi hour trip for VA counseling. Settles for local psych help which is marginal but knows he must help himself all that he can. Bills up the wazzu, can't hold a job, can't get proper counseling, can't get claims through that may bridge the gap between work that he can stay employed in and what is needed for his family to survive finacially. so out of frustration from not being able to buy what the wife had on the shopping list, he throws his empty iced tea bottle which bounces off the trash container and hits the WalMart window. Between vets attitude and the way the badge writes it up it borderlines on a criminal act not as accident. Not likely to experience jail time, but restitution for the crime is mandatory. Had VA processed his claim, would he be in this position? If there was a way his local psych doc could get paid by VA because of unavailability of local VA Outreach center could he have had more or at least regular sessions with his local psych doc? I wonder how long it will be before a civil suit for damages against a vet will also list VA as additional defendant? I don't neccesarily beleive in a jail for vets either. I do beleive in them getting their claims through in a timely fashion so that they can get what they are entitled to and avoiding even being faced with jail. Edited 1 time by Dbltap1 May 26 12 8:11 PM.
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