Clarification of Income Requirments for Marginal Employment in IU

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Clarification of Income Requirments for Marginal Employment

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MoNamVet	Clarification of Income Requirments for Marginal Employment		Lead	[-]
Posts: 467 Dec 12 11 7:45 PM	The following statement was made by Dean9908 in a thread below. My comments follow this statement: "You will read that you can work. With that said your poverty level determined below uses your VA bennies in the calculation. Now you do the math. Can you Work? Income Used to Compute Poverty Status (Money Income) •Includes earnings, unemployment compensation, workers' compensation, Social Security, Supplemental Security Income, public assistance, veterans' payments, survivor benefits, pension or retirement income, interest, dividends, rents, royalties, income from estates, trusts, educational assistance, alimony, child support, assistance from outside the household, and other miscellaneous sources." All these considerations may well go into a determination of "poverty level". However, for the purpose of IU, the way the VA phrases it refers to it is "earned income". Here's the wording from the CFRs: "For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran’s EARNED ANNUAL INCOME does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of theCensus, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold." Let's suppose for instance that the veteran is being compensated for 70% disability. That's currently $1272 for a vet with no dependents, and is the percentage designated as the hurdle mark for IU. In my area, that $1272 exceeds the poverty level. The distinction is that this $1272 is not "earned income". Obviously the VA did not set up criteria that you must have at least 70% disability for IU, and then disqualify you because you receive too much money. Likewise, Social Security is not "earned income", nor is SSI. Interest and dividends? Nope. All of these may well put an individual over the poverty level, but they don't disqualify him from IU because they are not "earned income". In fact, I was unable to find Deans definition in the CFRs concerning IU, or any other statement where they said they included most of the items mentioned above. The ONLY thing mentioned is "earned annual income", "earned" implying that it was received in return for work done on a job. Just wanted to clarify. I'm not suggesting that anyone get a job (or not). Just pointing out that there are many forms of income that do not go into the definition of "marginal employment" as set forth by the VA. B-36 Mobile Guerrilla Force 5th Special Forces Group Dec. 1967-Sept 1968
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nmfxstc		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 25186 Dec 12 11 10:23 PM	This stuff has been bantered and explored on VBN since we came on line initially! My stand (I and I won't change it!) is that if you are IU (and 99% of IU folks APPLIED FOR IU!) then you are unemployable, so anything indicating the possibility of employability means the IU should be rescinded! End of my firm rant and position on THAT! Fillean meal ar an meallaire.
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VABA		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 1:36 AM	MoNamVet (and YagerMichael), You guys have got it absolutely correct about IU and income levels. There are those who vehemently disagree--apparently from an emotional, gut level. Those vets have said "you can't work" and "if you get a VA pension, you make too much," but these simply are not supportable statements. The law regarding IU is very explicit and has been interpreted by courts ad infinitum. Your general sense of the matter is correct. Specifically, the Poverty Level used at VA for IU purposes is the Census Bureau calculation. (There are plenty of other agencies using different formulas.) The explanation in the first post above, about the calculation containing SSI, VA pension, etc, is used by Census to arrive at the number they use. The number is $11,139. When calculating YOUR amount, VA DOES NOT use all income. VA will only count EARNED income, as you've figured out. Now, as to the grief you're experiencing, sleepless nights, etc, I have this to say: The law was written specifically to give specific benefits to certain veterans. Words in the law are very specific, and are very well defined by many court opinions. So if some of the vets on this board have their own interpretation, then THEY are not following the law--either the letter of the law, or the intent of Congress. One more relevant matter: Some vets will say that "anything you do" might indicate that you are employable and thus not eligible for IU. That's simply not true. For instance, if you can do volunteer work, that fact alone does not make you ineligible. The nature of "volunteering" is quite different from "working" for an employer. Also, if you can work for the family business, that fact alone does not make you ineligible. That kind of employment is "protected" as everyone knows, and is not the same as working for an unrelated employer. Yager, your state's unemployment agency might want their money back if you drew unemployment while working. That's up to state law. I know it's tough to ramp down from a $100k lifestyle. I had to go from a $220k life to a $28k life instantaneously. From caviar to soup kitchen, literally. Personally, I hope my kids grow up to be engineers at $100k--at least! I wish you good fortune on your new adventures in living. >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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byrddog		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2618 Dec 13 11 8:49 AM	nmfxstc wrote: This stuff has been bantered and explored on VBN since we came on line initially! My stand (I and I won't change it!) is that if you are IU (and 99% of IU folks APPLIED FOR IU!) then you are unemployable, so anything indicating the possibility of employability means the IU should be rescinded! End of my firm rant and position on THAT! I totally agree. If you can't work your IU. If you can consider workin your probably not. The whole marginal thing is a loophole or like a pit of snakes you might be able to keep from getting bit for a while but sooner or later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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redfish		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1401 Dec 13 11 9:12 AM	It's more moral to me than legal. You have been rated "Unemployable". However you have discovered that you are able to be "Employable". Would you not feel that you were being dishonest by continuing to draw IU when you can work? Sometimes it's ok legally but it's not morally.
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ks1k		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3686 Dec 13 11 10:59 AM	Dave sends USAFSS 1957-1979
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VABA		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 11:33 AM	It's NOT a loophole, never was. Read the court cases--it's the INTENT of the law that a veteran drawing IU should be allowed to put his remaining capacity to some good use. In nobody's world is it a good thing to pay people for NOT doing work. EVERY law regarding unemployment or unemployability has at its core, the desire for the recipient to do SOMETHING at least marginally useful. If Congress wanted you to sit on your ass, they would have written it that way. They didn't. I'll TELL YOU what's immoral. It's immoral to force a veteran to sit on his ass, for any reason, whether paid or not. If you don't want the option to work a tiny bit, fine. But don't deprive other vets of the option that Congress, the courts and the VA clearly intended. >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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phantomfixer1		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1094 Dec 13 11 11:59 AM	VABA wrote: It's NOT a loophole, never was. Read the court cases--it's the INTENT of the law that a veteran drawing IU should be allowed to put his remaining capacity to some good use.if a vetern applies for iu or accepts iu, he/she is claiming that they have no remaining capacity. to get iu and suddenly state you have remaining capacity is ,to this vet, is perjury. you can't state unempoyability,draw the money and then work. eventually the va will take action. and then what happens?? the vet usualy starts the process of iu all over. wasting the va's time. so what remaining capacity are you referring to? iu means there is none. In nobody's world is it a good thing to pay people for NOT doing work. EVERY law regarding unemployment or unemployability has at its core, the desire for the recipient to do SOMETHING at least marginally use If Congress wanted you to sit on your ass, they would have written it that way. They didn't. I'll TELL YOU what's immoral. It's immoral to force a veteran to sit on his ass, for any reason, whether paid or not. If you don't want the option to work a tiny bit, fine. But don't deprive other vets of the option that Congress, the courts and the VA clearly intended.
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.		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2420 Dec 13 11 12:05 PM	That's exacatly right phantom but we'll have to come up with the regs otherwise the non believers will disagree as they have since I've been on here since 2005. Take your chances but to push the envelope and hope you get a fair shake. Well have at it.
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NavyNCC		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4626 Dec 13 11 12:15 PM Navy Chief Initiated by Choice Proud of Tradition	Just a thought. I've never seen a veteran have IU granted while they were doing "marginal employment". Wonder why that is.... Things that make you go hummmmm.. NavyNCC "We keep you alive to serve this ship"
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VABA		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 12:29 PM	Congress and the VA designed the law to allow veterans who did not meet the schedular requirements to be eligible on a facts found basis. Can you not accept the fact that a lot of people are totally unemployable in the real work-a-day world, but yet still have some capacity to work for their dad in the garage on their good days, or volunteer at the VA when they are up to it? I can accept the fact that my fellow vet can't last more than a few days working a "real" job, but they can manage--AND IT IS HEALTHY for them--to do what they can. I CERTAINLY WILL AGREE that, at some point, you've got to draw the line. And they did! The people who worked hard designing these regs, ensuring that each word said exactly what it was supposed to say, kept to the same principle: Help the vet. I'm not pushing any envelope here, guys. If someone says, no workee at ALL, then THEY are the one redrawing the line, rewriting the reg, ignoring the framers, and hurting the vets. If I'm wrong, I shall stand corrected and humbled. I'm just saying, read the whole reg and understand all the ramifications. Don't read into it what you think it should say. (And please help me understand the vociferous gut reactions I'm sensing: I wonder if there is some point of pride taken by saying, the war screwed me up so bad, I can't possibly do anything worthwhile at all.) >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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witchdoctor		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 11385 Dec 13 11 12:30 PM	Ditto. Nowhere on the application do you certify that you cannot work. here's the quote: "...CERTIFICATION OF STATEMENTS: I CERTIFY THAT as a result of my service-connected disabilities, I am unable to secure or follow any substantially gainful occupation and that the statements in this application are true and complete to the best of my knowledge and belief . I understand that these statements will be considered in determining my eligibility for VA benefits based on unemployability because of service-connected disability. ..." Read the entire application here: http://www.vba.va.gov/pubs/forms/vba-21-8940-are.pdf Member-at-large: Disturbed Veterans of America. Edited 1 time by witchdoctor Dec 13 11 12:35 PM.
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dean9908		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7291 Dec 13 11 12:33 PM	MoNamVet wrote: The following statement was made by Dean9908 in a thread below. My comments follow this statement: "You will read that you can work. With that said your poverty level determined below uses your VA bennies in the calculation. Now you do the math. Can you Work? Income Used to Compute Poverty Status (Money Income) •Includes earnings, unemployment compensation, workers' compensation, Social Security, Supplemental Security Income, public assistance, veterans' payments, survivor benefits, pension or retirement income, interest, dividends, rents, royalties, income from estates, trusts, educational assistance, alimony, child support, assistance from outside the household, and other miscellaneous sources." All these considerations may well go into a determination of "poverty level". However, for the purpose of IU, the way the VA phrases it refers to it is "earned income". Here's the wording from the CFRs: "For purposes of this section, marginal employment generally shall be deemed to exist when a veteran’s EARNED ANNUAL INCOME does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of theCensus, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold." Let's suppose for instance that the veteran is being compensated for 70% disability. That's currently $1272 for a vet with no dependents, and is the percentage designated as the hurdle mark for IU. In my area, that $1272 exceeds the poverty level. The distinction is that this $1272 is not "earned income". Obviously the VA did not set up criteria that you must have at least 70% disability for IU, and then disqualify you because you receive too much money. Likewise, Social Security is not "earned income", nor is SSI. Interest and dividends? Nope. All of these may well put an individual over the poverty level, but they don't disqualify him from IU because they are not "earned income". In fact, I was unable to find Deans definition in the CFRs concerning IU, or any other statement where they said they included most of the items mentioned above. The ONLY thing mentioned is "earned annual income", "earned" implying that it was received in return for work done on a job. Just wanted to clarify. I'm not suggesting that anyone get a job (or not). Just pointing out that there are many forms of income that do not go into the definition of "marginal employment" as set forth by the VA. The bold above is straight off of VA's web site. It is not my definition.
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witchdoctor		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 11385 Dec 13 11 12:38 PM	BTW, by definition all 100% disability comp ratings infer TOTAL OCCUPATIONAL DISABILITY. Member-at-large: Disturbed Veterans of America.
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.		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2420 Dec 13 11 12:41 PM	Oh Shit ! here we go again!!!!!!
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VABA		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 12:41 PM	phantomfixer1 wrote: if a vetern applies for iu or accepts iu, he/she is claiming that they have no remaining capacity. to get iu and suddenly state you have remaining capacity is ,to this vet, is perjury. you can't state unempoyability,draw the money and then work. eventually the va will take action. and then what happens?? the vet usualy starts the process of iu all over. wasting the va's time. so what remaining capacity are you referring to? iu means there is none Phantom: No, when you apply for IU, you're claiming that you meet the requirements. The "remaining capacity" that I refer to is the difference between zero dollars and $11,139 dollars, fully provided for in the law. There are other measurements of remaining capacity such as the protected work environment. IN FACT, to explicitly provide this protection, yet prevent scammers, the reg has a whole section on Closely Held Corporations, where a vet might set himself up as a corporation and then employ himself so as to hide some of the earning. That is clearly verboten. >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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dean9908		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7291 Dec 13 11 12:42 PM	www.vba.va.gov/VBA/benefits/factsheets/serviceconnected/...
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VABA		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 12:46 PM	witchdoctor wrote: Ditto. Nowhere on the application do you certify that you cannot work. here's the quote: "...CERTIFICATION OF STATEMENTS: I CERTIFY THAT as a result of my service-connected disabilities, I am unable to secure or follow any substantially gainful occupation EXACTLY RIGHT, WitchDoctor. You certify you can't get SUBSTANTIALLY GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT, which is defined in the reg, just above the definition of Marginal employment. YOU DO NOT certify that you cannot work "at all." >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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witchdoctor		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 11385 Dec 13 11 12:48 PM	Above link from dean9908 doesn't work. Try this: http://www.vba.va.gov/VBA.../serviceconnected/IU.asp Member-at-large: Disturbed Veterans of America.
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dean9908		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7291 Dec 13 11 12:52 PM	Marginal employment is generally deemed to exist when a veteran's earned income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Census Bureau as the poverty level for the veteran only. For more information on the U.S. Census Bureau's poverty thresholds, see http://www.census.gov/hhe...ut/overview/measure.html http://www.vba.va.gov/VBA.../serviceconnected/iu.doc
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VABA		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2487 Dec 13 11 12:55 PM	dean9908 wrote: The bold above is straight off of VA's web site. It is not my definition. Sorry, Dean. I respect you, sir. But the Bold Quote is exactly from the Census Bureau website, describing their formula for poverty status, not from the VA site. The closest VA reference to the Bold Quote above is on a fact sheet describing the Means Test for copays. It doesn't apply to IU. >Insert Witty Saying Here< Ozanam71, Bishop Hogan73, USN74, SERE, VQ1, Ranger75, Midway76, Coral Sea77, Constellation78, Kitty Hawk79, Atsugi80, UCF84, USAF85, Clark86, Taegu87, Osan88, Spangdahlem89, Ramstein91, Sheppard93, RET95, WWU04, MBA05, PMP08, VAMC09, ALS Widower 2011
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