Marginal Employment in IU - Individual Unemployability Forum

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Marginal Employment

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Stillhere

Marginal Employment

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Posts: 6639

Sep 30 09 7:48 PM

I would like to hear some discusiion on marginal Employment if anyone knows the answer to this.

Vet is 80% (60 for heart and dm2 and pn comes up to VA math 80%)

Now this Vet in question before 2001 made upwards of $100,000+ in commision sales for a manufacturer after 2001 the Vets sales and comission have been going down to the point the Vet is only making maybe $40,000.

Now while he is still working and making less than half that he did would this vet be called gainful employed or marginal??

Also this vet tried Re Hab and re hab said they could not help him A. Because of his age. and B. Because the evaluation came back saying he could not do anything else.

Thank you.

nmfxstc

#1

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Posts: 25198

Sep 30 09 8:05 PM

Is the guy IU???

Fillean meal ar an meallaire.

texasglory

#2

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Posts: 806

Sep 30 09 8:07 PM

It would be considered gainful employment.

Tex

Marginal employment exists when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (which includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consider the nature of the employment and the reason for termination in all claims. (38 CFR § 4.16)

The single most important difference between a 100% schedular rating and an IU designation is that the veteran rated with the Individual Unemployabilty label is not allowed to work to a level of gainful employment while the veteran who is schedular rated may work at any profession and achieve any income he or she is able to. "Gainful employment" is usually defined as full time work that earns an income that is about equal to the defined federal poverty level.

Neither rating is fully protected from a future action to lower the rating. Only after 20 years of a continuous rating of 100% is the veteran protected from action by VBA to reduce the rating.

The 2009 Marginal amount in the 48 Contiguous States for 1 person is $10,830.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml

Edited 2 times by texasglory Sep 30 09 8:15 PM.

Stillhere

#3

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Posts: 6639

Sep 30 09 8:27 PM

nmfxstc wrote:
Is the guy IU???

No but thinking about it.

Stillhere

#4

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Posts: 6639

Sep 30 09 8:44 PM

texasglory wrote:
It would be considered gainful employment.

Tex

Marginal employment exists when a veteran's earned annual income does not exceed the amount established by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, as the poverty threshold for one person. Marginal employment may also be held to exist, on a facts found basis (which includes but is not limited to employment in a protected environment such as a family business or sheltered workshop), when earned annual income exceeds the poverty threshold. Consider the nature of the employment and the reason for termination in all claims. (38 CFR § 4.16)

The single most important difference between a 100% schedular rating and an IU designation is that the veteran rated with the Individual Unemployabilty label is not allowed to work to a level of gainful employment while the veteran who is schedular rated may work at any profession and achieve any income he or she is able to. "Gainful employment" is usually defined as full time work that earns an income that is about equal to the defined federal poverty level.

Neither rating is fully protected from a future action to lower the rating. Only after 20 years of a continuous rating of 100% is the veteran protected from action by VBA to reduce the rating.

The 2009 Marginal amount in the 48 Contiguous States for 1 person is $10,830.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml

Interesting that the vet is losing 60,000 a year because of his disabilities and being compensated at a rate of 80% $1,598 a month for a total of $19,176.00 that is a shortfall of $40,000 for the vet for the year.

If this vet applies for IU and is granted he would recieve around $36,000 a year and with a payout of $2,200.00 for SSDI that would amount to $26,400 for a total of $45,576.00 and say he worked at the poverty level at $10,000 his total would be $55,576. + all the bennies of the VA health care and PX and Dental and all that he is now paying for. At a rate of $400.00 a month equals $4,800 he would also save on his taxes at his state real estate of $5,600 bringing his take home to a total of $65,976!

Still a shortfall but it is almost better for him to stay home without the stress of work on his heart and all his stress on his body and other disabilities.

Now if you take the $100,000 - 32.5% for taxes = bring home of $67,500.- his insurance of $4,800. = $62,700.

But he is only making $40,000 total with taxes out at 20% $8,000 for a bring home of $32,000+ his VA at 80% at $19,176 = Total of $51,176.00 bring home.

I am going to recommend to him to apply and stay home!

Correct??

Edited 1 time by Stillhere Sep 30 09 8:50 PM.

wholesalecd

#5

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Posts: 1717

Sep 30 09 9:44 PM

texasglory

#6

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Posts: 806

Sep 30 09 10:02 PM

Based on the information provided I can't say he is losing $60.000 a year because of disabilities. I don't know if this is a hypothetical trick question or not but the scenario makes no mention that the loss of income was a result of his inability to work, or that he was only working x hours a week.

It could very well be that the manufacturing business significantly slowed down as part an economic slowdown. There are many business variables that could come into play to explain the differential in income. Don't worry the Government will take the business over soon and all will be well:) Just kidding.

He also doesn't know for certain if he would be approved for SSDI so that is another risk and there is no IU guarantee either. We know he has a heart condition but we don't know the severity of his condition.

Lots of people have triple bypass and still are able to work full time. So if he quit there is a possibility his income would be 0 a year and $40,000.00 a year would then look like a lot of money. Plus there is a satisfaction in working and earning an income. It takes a long time to adjust in many cases once you leave the work place. I still wake up reaching for my boots.

On the flip side, if the blanks are filled in indicating that he has a serious heart condition that is causing him to not work full time, if the condition is permanent, and he has medical supporting evidence that proves he cannot work, I'm with you. If he can't work because of service connected disability, and can prove his case with medical evidence, he should fight for every penny he is entitled to by law in my opinion.

I do like the way you did the math and factored everything in the equation so many people dod not realize how much these tangible and intangible benefits are worth when rounded out in dollar figures coupled with the tax savings.

I don't know where he lives but he lives here in Texas and some other States
( assuming he would be P&T) he would not pay any property taxes on a principal residence.

That is a big benefit and he would probably save another $4000 a year , plus a $3 registration/plates, free fishing license, Golden Access Passport, Texas Parklands Passport, and such... If he owns a second residence in Texas he would also be able to trim $12,000.00 off the top of the appraised amount each year. This is in addition to the total exemption.

So I agree with you that once we add everything it is a nice chunk of change but we all rather have our health back so that we could reenter the workforce.

Tex

71infantry

#7

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Posts: 4990

Sep 30 09 10:11 PM

texasglory wrote:

.

That is a big benefit and he would probably save another $4000 a year , plus a $3 registration/plates, free fishing license, Golden Access Passport, Texas Parklands Passport, and such... If he owns a second residence in Texas he would also be able to trim $12,000.00 off the top of the appraised amount each year. This is in addition to the total exemption.

The golden access passport is obsolete for about two years now....

Golden Access Passport
This pass has been discontinued and replaced by the America the Beautiful - National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass- Access Pass

http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm

Edited 1 time by 71infantry Sep 30 09 10:17 PM.

texasglory

#8

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Posts: 806

Sep 30 09 10:22 PM

The pass was discontinued and replaced but America Golden Age Passports will continue to be honored according to the provisions of the pass. Only paper Golden Age and Access Passports may be exchanged free of charge for new plastic passes. So it is no longer issued by that name but it can still be used so it is not obsolete.

http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm

Tex

71infantry

#9

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Posts: 4990

Sep 30 09 10:45 PM

texasglory wrote:
The pass was discontinued and replaced but America Golden Age Passports will continue to be honored according to the provisions of the pass. Only paper Golden Age and Access Passports may be exchanged free of charge for new plastic passes. So it is no longer issued by that name but it can still be used so it is not obsolete.

http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm

Tex

As I said it is obsolete...Mine was taken from me three weeks ago. They are not being honored, and are being replace without the request of the user.

ob⋅so⋅lete [ob-suh-leet, ob-suh-leet]

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Use obsolete in a Sentence

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-adjective

1.	no longer in general use; fallen into disuse: an obsolete expression.

2.	of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date: an obsolete battleship.

3.	(of a linguistic form) no longer in use, esp., out of use for at least the past century. Compare archaic.

4.	effaced by wearing down or away.

5.	Biology. imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals, as of the opposite sex or of a related species.

-verb (used with object)

6.	to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate: Automation has obsoleted many factory workers.

texasglory

#10

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Posts: 806

Sep 30 09 11:16 PM

Nope. You are dead wrong again. They are not obsolete. They have made that clear on their web page as proven below and we use ours all the time.

They are "discontinued" but discontinued and "obsolete" are two words with different meanings. Discontinued means they stopped providing them, Obsolete means that they are no longer in use.

For those of you who have Golden Access passports the highlighted proof that you can still use them is provided below:

The proof is shown clearly on the Government web page below.

http://www.nps.gov/fees_passes.htm

Golden Access Passport

This pass has been discontinued and replaced by the America the Beautiful - National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass- Access Pass

All National Parks Passes, Golden Eagle, Golden Eagle Hologram, Golden Access and Golden Age Passports will continue to be honored according to the provisions of the pass. Only paper Golden Age and Access Passports may be exchanged free of charge for new plastic passes.

Tex

ggold7211

Back to the OP

#11

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Posts: 3462

Oct 1 09 6:50 AM

1-The purpose both of these entitlement programs was never to make a person whole.

"Still a shortfall but it is almost better for him to stay home without the stress of work on his heart and all his stress on his body and other disabilities.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2-I have absolutely no opinion about Golden passes or Golden arches.

signed ,
The Gold man

Stillhere

#12

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Posts: 6639

Oct 1 09 7:03 AM

ANYHOW:

From Tex:

On the flip side, if the blanks are filled in indicating that he has a serious heart condition that is causing him to not work full time, if the condition is permanent, and he has medical supporting evidence that proves he cannot work, I'm with you. If he can't work because of service connected disability, and can prove his case with medical evidence, he should fight for every penny he is entitled to by law in my opinion.

Ok his heart condition is serious and it is effecting how he is able to function to the point that it has caused depression and kicked in his PTSD so the VA shrink says. He has been able only to work like 2/3 days a week, mainly from home. He has been dealing with problems of actually arguing with and losing clients. He has put in for the depression/PTSD which his doc wrote is moderate to severe at times.

With all that being said his cardio doc is very concerned this could lead to another heart attack and even death.

Because of his problems and his ability to sustain his income his wife has been forced to return to work and is doing great. She has said she would rather he stay home or do a less stressful job to take off the pressure and hopefully keep him around a few years longer.

What do you guys think??

RustyShackleford

#13

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Posts: 2598

Oct 1 09 8:50 AM

Assuming the medical records support an IU claim,

It would seem staying home would be healthier for him before he loses another increment in earnings, considering what you said about his mood.

If I were in a similar boat, I would file for SSDI at the same time, using the same records.

fwiw

Stillhere

#14

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Posts: 6639

Oct 1 09 9:29 AM

Right That is what I thought also, but I guess I am going to recommend that he wait until his depression/PTSD is rated. That might get him to 100% scheduler and P&T.

Right?

gimpthegreat

#15

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Posts: 192

Oct 1 09 10:13 AM

Here's a thread I had started awhile back inquiring about disability ratings and IU and loss of income in relation to the past. The situation in the thread is no longer the case, but it probably is a good read to expand opinion base and info.

http://vets.yuku.com/topic/17517

My mind says to shoot for the moon, but my body was built by the lowest bidder.

80% IU

wholesalecd

#16

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Posts: 1717

Oct 1 09 10:59 AM

RustyShackleford wrote:
Assuming the medical records support an IU claim,

It would seem staying home would be healthier for him before he loses another increment in earnings, considering what you said about his mood.

If I were in a similar boat, I would file for SSDI at the same time, using the same records.

fwiw

I totally agree Rusty. I would definetely turn in the same paperwork to SSDI and get this process jumpstarted. The drive to work is very strong for most of us and it's hard coming to that resolution that we are just better off taking the benefits we earned.

franky

texasglory

#17

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Posts: 806

Oct 1 09 1:02 PM

Based on the additional information you provided he would probably be eligible for both IU or 100% Scheduler / SSDI. If I was in that situation I would apply for SSDI first and if that comes back approved I would use that as additional hard evidence for an IU claim.

It would take a lot of the stress out of the IU process IMO. At least that is the way I would see it, others may see if differently based on their own life long experiences.

Tex

Stillhere

#18

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Posts: 6639

Oct 1 09 1:50 PM

Well he is going to his cardio doc next week and talk to him about it (it is a private doc). I told him to talk to the doc about his depression/stress/ and explain the PTSD issue to him if he doesn't know.

He tells me and not the wife, that for the past few months he has been having anxiety attacks and angina pains but has not gone back to ER yet trying to deal with it. His last operation (he has had 2) was back in 07.

Anyhow thanks for the help and I will stay on him and I might tell his wife too.

ggold7211

I guess I am the only one in the minority.................

#19

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Posts: 3462

Oct 1 09 1:55 PM

Either he can work or find less strenous work is the issue to me.
The wife should not factor in the equation.
Many people with heart conditions continue to work
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"Because of his problems and his ability to sustain his income his wife has been forced to return to work and is doing great. She has said she would rather he stay home or do a less stressful job to take off the pressure and hopefully keep him around a few years longer."
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"It would seem staying home would be healthier for him before he loses another increment in earnings, considering what you said about his mood"
GG

Stillhere

#20

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Posts: 6639

Oct 1 09 2:06 PM

Please gold put yourself in his position for once, he like anyone else has pride and if he can't continue working and earning as he has that in itself is going to cause more depression and stress.

Ever hear the old saying killing himself over work? I am sure you have, a little compassion here I think would be appropriate.

Think about it he looks fine on the outside but is very limited as far as lifting anything or doing almost nothing around the house. He is a neighbor and Vietnam vet and since his heart attack I have seen and actually helped his wife in the groceries. He wants to help but his wife only gives him the bread to carry!

If you had to live like that would you be upbeat and happy go lucky?? I doubt it.

Only those that are handicapped know how their handicaps limit them.

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